City Politics

“Berlin is a city with no tradition and that is to its advantage” – An Interview with Hartmut Häussermann

Professor Hartmut Häussermann; Foto: Anita BackProfessor Hartmut Häussermann; Photo: Anita BackIf there is anybody who really knows the sociotope of Berlin, then it surely has to be the sociologist, Hartmut Häussermann. He studied at the Free University of Berlin and was a professor of urban and regional sociology at the Humboldt University for 15 years. For many years now he has been commissioned by the city to carry out surveys and render his findings – the last one being on socio-spatial segregation.

Herr Häussermann, the present Governing Mayor of Berlin, Klaus Wowereit, said back in 2003 that the city was “poor, but nevertheless sexy”. Are people still being lured to the capital today, a good 20 years after the fall of the wall?

As in all the big cities it is young people, migrant groups aged from 18 to 25, that are heading for Berlin. Mainly with a view to continue their education or professional training – after all the universities and higher education institutions are all in the big cities. In Berlin however there is also another draw – what they call “the creative professions”. It is a magnet for artists of all kinds and professionals involved in culture who are fully aware of what Berlin has to offer and that is above all – space. In the wake of the Second World War Berlin was left with a lot of space and it is relatively inexpensive. Young people and artists are actually in a position to acquire it. This is very much appreciated, even by people coming from abroad. Even the sector that involves the higher services is growing – advertising, communications, consulting, lawyers – more or less everything connected with governmental and management functions.

Am I correct in thinking that fewer immigrants are moving to Berlin at the moment?

The number of Turkish-born immigrants has decreased sharply. I would even go so far as to say we have a deficit at the moment. It is often the case that Turkish-born Berliners move back to Turkey after they have been trained in Germany, because there they see better opportunities to apply what they have learned. In Istanbul there are many Turks who grew up and were trained in Berlin, but are now working there. This is of course particularly good for German-Turkish relations!

What is the situation in Berlin when it comes to that much discussed subject of integration? I get the impression that Berlin does not fare so well compared to other places.

Yes, you are right, integration here is not doing as well as in other cities. The reason being that we simply have a greater number of poorly educated immigrants. This proletariat that was recruited back in the 1960s and 1970s to work in industry is concentrated in Berlin in large numbers and has managed to establish itself as a milieu in a much more substantial way than in the cities of southern Germany.

The “Kieze” (hoods) are changing

Spielplatz in Neukölln; Photo: Lorenz ViereckeBerlin is famous for its special neighbourhoods known as “Kieze”. Are there any you are particularly worried about? The former working-class district of Neukölln is considered to be a problem “Kiez”.

Neukölln has always been a district ridden with high unemployment and poverty, with a large immigrant population. It is the same with the district of Wedding – one is as good or as bad as the other. In Neukölln however there has been a change over the last few years; the district has been discovered by young people who come from other Berlin districts like Kreuzberg, Prenzlauer Berg or Mitte – districts where they cannot find any housing or premises as the rents are so high. They are now moving to Neukölln. On the northern outskirts of Neukölln, where all the old buildings are, things are beginning to gradually change. There is now a much stronger social mix than in the past. The number of Turks In Neukölln is declining and the number of foreigners from the West is increasing.

So there is quite a lot happening in Neukölln?

Yes, it is the district that has undergone the most changes. Kreuzberg of course is being gentrified, as they say. The rents there are going up. The real estate industry is revamping properties and charging high rents or selling them at high prices, prompting more and more higher-income earners to move there. The days when young students or artists moved to Kreuzberg because it was so cheap are gone.

There ist still a division between East- and West-Berlin

Berliner ist, wer hier wohnt; Foto: Lorenz ViereckeAnd what is the situation like in the inner urban areas – have the residents of East and West Berlin merged together?

After the fall of the Wall many immigrants could have moved to the East, to Prenzlauer Berg, to Friedrichshain or Treptow – there was so much cheap housing available. But it did not happen. There is still a division; the old immigrants who had lived in West Berlin until the Wall came down, stayed there. Only new immigrants moved to East Berlin - the so-called Russians, ethnic Germans from the former Soviet Union, and new immigrants from eastern European countries.

Then in the beginning there was quite a lot of xenophobia in the districts of East Berlin, and even today it is still a bit of a problem. I would not necessarily advise anybody with a dark skin colouring to take a walk in the streets of such districts as Marzahn or Hellersdorf. This of course is a feeling that spreads very quickly, reinforcing the barriers or boundaries people have in their minds, even up to the present day. Many people who move to Berlin, do not move to the East.

What in fact is your relationship with Berlin? You yourself are originally from the southern German state of Baden-Württemberg.

That is the big plus-point for Berlin – the fact that there is no actual definition of what makes a real Berliner and what not. People who move to Berlin become Berliners relatively quickly for there are really only foreigners or non-Berliners living there. Even those people who were born in Berlin can often be traced back to immigrants – many came from East Prussia in the 19th century. This history is not rooted in a local culture or a local folklore like most of the other cities like Cologne with its Carnival, Hamburg with its nautical feel or Munich with its “Lederhosen” culture. Berlin is a city that has no tradition. And that is to its advantage.

So you are a Berliner?

Yes. Quite definitely.

Hartmut Häussermann was born in Waiblingen in 1943. He was a professor of urban and regional sociology at the universities of Kassel (1976-1978) and Bremen (1978-1993) and later at the Humboldt University in Berlin from 1993 to 2008. From 2002 to 2006 he was president of the Research Committee on Regional and Urban Development of the International Sociological Association (ISA). In 2008 he set up his own business – a company called res urbana that carries out surveys and produces reports for the city of Berlin. Hartmut Häussermann died on 31 October 2011. 

Stephanie Wurster
conducted the interview. She works as a free-lance literary editor, author and translator in Berlin.

Translation: Paul McCarthy
Copyright: Goethe-Institut e. V., Online-Redaktion
July2011

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